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"So given that we're clearly on a trajectory to have games that are indistinguishable from reality... and there would probably be billions of... computers... boxes, it would seem to follow that the odds that we're in base reality is one in billions."

, 2016

"Can you imagine that as recently as a few years ago, people used to sit around and nod along as they listened to this... bullshit?"

, 2024

techwontsave.us/episode/247_da

Tech Won't Save UsData Vampires: Fighting for Control (Episode 4) - Tech Won’t Save UsA left-wing podcast for better technology and a better world.

Melon Husk has made *so* many illogical leaps here. The most obvious one being that simulated computer game characters will one day be capable of experiencing themselves subjectively. Because otherwise there's nowhere else we could be, but "base reality", as he puts it.

Is computer science going to achieve that? It seems unlikely, mainly because there are good reasons to think it might be philosophically impossible. Let's unpack this a bit.

(1/?)

Despite all the increases in the graphical resolution of computer games (mainly by increasing the number of transistors used to run them), we've yet to get NPCs that simulate intelligence. Let alone *consciousness*.

Mainly because we don't yet have a scientific model of what consciousness *is*, or how it works. If we don't even begin to understand it's mechanisms (if indeed it has any), how can we simulate them?

So is this a tractable science problem requiring only time? I suspect not.

(2/?)

In A Brief History of Everything, Ken Wilber posits that reality consists not only of "surfaces that can be measured" - the realm of the sciences - but also "depths that must be interpreted". The realms of the arts and ethics.

If this model is even vaguely correct, we can measure heads and brains all we want, as well as the EM fields surrounding them, and even aspects of cognition. But none of that will ever allow a psychologist to tell someone how they feel, rather than having to ask.

(3/?)

Transhumanists like Melon Husk live in a model of reality where all depths are squashed up into their corresponding surfaces; what Wilber calls "flatland". In this model, humans are "philosophical zombies", who only think we are conscious beings;

jaronlanier.com/zombie.html

In flatland, consciousness is a trick reality plays on us with our brains, and/or other purely material phenomena. So as soon as we can simulate enough of those, we can make a consciousness-in-a-bottle.

(4/?)

The obvious counterargument is; no matter how much better our simulations of fluid dynamics in water get, they never get any wetter. "Wetness", it seems, is a property of reality that can't be digitally simulated.

Similarly, no matter how perfect your simulation of cognition, there's no reason to think it will ever be conscious. At best, you're creating high-resolution digital ghosts. Which may freak out the living, but do nothing whatsoever to extend the life of the person simulated.

(5/?)

However, in the fever dreams of transhumanists, once we can accurately simulate consciousness, we can simulate *our own* consciousness. Then we can "upload" it to The Cloud, and live forever in digital heaven.

This is, as Cory Doctorow (@pluralistic) and Charles Stross (@cstross) put it in the title of their co-written sci fi novel, The Rapture of the Nerds.

(6/?)

Put this way, it's clear that what we have here is not scientific futurism, but fundamentalist religion. The idea that we already live in a simulation, because 'probability', is based in the dogmas of this religion. Like other religions that can't wait for the Rapture, it's profoundly anti-life.

(7/?)

All of which helps to explain why people like Melon Husk are happy to emit any amount of carbon in pursuit of developing "AI". Because like the characters in Ben Elton novels like Stark and This Other Eden, they're not trying to save the human race and the biosphere we depend on. They're trying to survive it.

They are the pyramid builders of our time. Obscenely powerful people, who can think of nothing better to do with their power than trying to make themselves immortal.

(8/?)

Strypey

What we're really looking at here, among those who want to 'upload to The Cloud', is a kind of mental illness. A narcissistic ego addiction. Like all addictions, it consumes the life of the addict, and anyone else who let's them get too close.

Which would just be sad and pathetic, if it wasn't an existential threat to the rest of us.

(9/9)

Coda:

Dan McQuillan, a lecturer at Goldsmiths University, doesn't mince words when describing the implications of all this;

"'AI' has a tendency towards fascistic solutionism."

techwontsave.us/episode/247_da

to Vicarious by Tool, from their fourth studio album 10,000 Days, released in 2006. Here's the official music video;

inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=h_TUP2v

The lyrics could be about the antihumanist dream of living forever in The Cloud, and their cynical belief that we're all as venal and narcissistic as they are;

"I need to watch things die
From a good safe distance
Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies
You all feel the same, so
Why can't we just admit it?"

(1/2)

TOOLVEVO | InvidiousTOOL - Vicarious (Official Video)“Vicarious” by Tool Listen to Tool: https://Tool.lnk.to/listenYD Subscribe to the official Tool YouTube Channel: https://Tool.lnk.to/subscribeYD Get The New Album “Fear Inoculum” Available Now: http://smarturl.it/TOOLFIa?iQid=yt Listen to TOOL’s Full Catalog – Available Now: http://smarturl.it/TOOLCatalog?iQid=yt   Upcoming TOOL Tour Dates:  https://toolband.com   TOOL Official Store: https://store.toolband.com/   Connect With TOOL:  Facebook: https://Tool.lnk.to/followFI Twitter: https://Tool.lnk.to/followTI Instagram: https://Tool.lnk.to/followII Website: https://Tool.lnk.to/followWI Spotify: https://Tool.lnk.to/followSI #TOOL #Vicarious #10000Days Lyrics: Eye on the TV 'Cause tragedy thrills me Whatever flavor it happens to be like Killed by the husband Drowned by the ocean Shot by his own son She used a poison In his tea And kissed him goodbye That's my kind of story It's no fun until someone dies Don't look at me like I am a monster Frown out your one face But with the other Stare like a junkie Into the TV Stare like a zombie While the mother Holds her child Watches him die Hands to the sky crying "Why, oh why?" 'Cause I need to watch things die From a distance Vicariously I live While the whole world dies You all need it too, don't lie Why can't we just admit it? Why can't we just admit it? We won't give pause until the blood is flowing Neither the brave nor bold Were writers of the stories told We won't give pause until the blood is flowing I need to watch things die From a good safe distance Vicariously I live while the whole world dies You all feel the same, so Why can't we just admit it? Blood like rain come down Drum on grave and ground Part vampire Part warrior Carnivore and voyeur Stare at the transmittal Sing to the death rattle La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie Credulous at best Your desire to believe in Angels in the hearts of men Pull your head out of your hippie haze And give a listen Shouldn't have to say it all again The universe is hostile, so impersonal Devour to survive, so it is So it's always been We all feed on tragedy It's like blood to a vampire Vicariously I Live while the whole world dies Much better you than I

"Credulous at best, your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men
Pull your head on out your hippy haze and give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again
The universe is hostile, so impersonal
Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been"

, Vicarious, 10,000 Days, 2006

inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=h_TUP2v

(2/2)

TOOLVEVO | InvidiousTOOL - Vicarious (Official Video)“Vicarious” by Tool Listen to Tool: https://Tool.lnk.to/listenYD Subscribe to the official Tool YouTube Channel: https://Tool.lnk.to/subscribeYD Get The New Album “Fear Inoculum” Available Now: http://smarturl.it/TOOLFIa?iQid=yt Listen to TOOL’s Full Catalog – Available Now: http://smarturl.it/TOOLCatalog?iQid=yt   Upcoming TOOL Tour Dates:  https://toolband.com   TOOL Official Store: https://store.toolband.com/   Connect With TOOL:  Facebook: https://Tool.lnk.to/followFI Twitter: https://Tool.lnk.to/followTI Instagram: https://Tool.lnk.to/followII Website: https://Tool.lnk.to/followWI Spotify: https://Tool.lnk.to/followSI #TOOL #Vicarious #10000Days Lyrics: Eye on the TV 'Cause tragedy thrills me Whatever flavor it happens to be like Killed by the husband Drowned by the ocean Shot by his own son She used a poison In his tea And kissed him goodbye That's my kind of story It's no fun until someone dies Don't look at me like I am a monster Frown out your one face But with the other Stare like a junkie Into the TV Stare like a zombie While the mother Holds her child Watches him die Hands to the sky crying "Why, oh why?" 'Cause I need to watch things die From a distance Vicariously I live While the whole world dies You all need it too, don't lie Why can't we just admit it? Why can't we just admit it? We won't give pause until the blood is flowing Neither the brave nor bold Were writers of the stories told We won't give pause until the blood is flowing I need to watch things die From a good safe distance Vicariously I live while the whole world dies You all feel the same, so Why can't we just admit it? Blood like rain come down Drum on grave and ground Part vampire Part warrior Carnivore and voyeur Stare at the transmittal Sing to the death rattle La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie La, la, la, la, la, la-la-lie Credulous at best Your desire to believe in Angels in the hearts of men Pull your head out of your hippie haze And give a listen Shouldn't have to say it all again The universe is hostile, so impersonal Devour to survive, so it is So it's always been We all feed on tragedy It's like blood to a vampire Vicariously I Live while the whole world dies Much better you than I
@strypey The cloud is just someone else's computer. I want to self-host my mind.

@Hyolobrika
> The cloud is just someone else's computer

Indeed. Imagine the bills if you hosted a mind on AWS : P

> I want to self-host my mind

I can help you with that. All you need is an everyday device called a "body". They need daily admin to keep them powered, within a safe temperature range, etc, but most people learn to do this during their first few years of life ; )