"Sterilizing immunity is not induced by any of the vaccines so the fact that infection still occurs is not surprising but the immunity that is generated, which includes the non-neutralizing antibodies and T-cells that are less tested for, ensures that disease is minimised."

- , Professor of Virology, University of Reading

scoop.co.nz/stories/GE2108/S00

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So if I can still get COVID after being vaccinated, but I just won't get as sick, it follows that I can still spread it after being vaccinated. So getting vaccinated has no significant benefit for the community at large, as is sometimes claimed. That being the case, my only criteria for deciding whether to have the vaccine is the risk of getting badly ill from COVID vs getting ill from adverse vaccine reactions.

So far I'm leaning towards taking my chances with letting my natural immune response do its job. Especially after reading that the Pfizer vaccine being used in NZ may have killed one woman by inducing myocarditis:

rnz.co.nz/news/national/450352

@strypey
You are also much more likely to get myocarditis from the virus itself, along with other recorded side effects.

@gamayun
OK. That seems like a relevant data to consider point, any citations backing it up?

@wolf480pl @bigblen

@strypey
Well here's a review and a write-up:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/343417
newscientist.com/article/mg251

Estimates would be that you are at least 6-10 times more likely to develop myocarditis in association with the infection. Note than vaccine related cases are much more likely to be properly identified, confirmed with autopsy etc. The clinical outcomes are also much better.

@wolf480pl @bigblen

@strypey worth considering what you may be choosing between:

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2021/

From this article
"the monitoring board found myocarditis probably caused a woman’s death.

The board pointed out, however, that the woman also had other medical issues at the same time, which could have had a role to play.
...
A recent study of Israel data found the risk of suffering myocarditis after catching Covid-19 far outweighed the risk from vaccination."

@bigblen
> risk of suffering myocarditis after catching Covid-19 far outweighed the risk from vaccination

Even when this data is sorted by age group and other relevant risk factors?

@strypey You may also get hit by car on your way to the vaccination point and back, but what are the chances?

@wolf480pl @strypey

The chances are low, and that's good.

The main argument I see for taking the vax for low risk people (anyone under 40 without comorbidities), is to keep others safe.

However, since you can still transmit the virus when vaxxed (and not less so, since virus load in nose/throat is still the same), the argument looks invalid to me.

Even worse, vaxxed people probably have fewer symptoms, so might be out more and spreading their viral load even more than symptomatic unvaxxed.

@wolf480pl

My personal reasoning is a lot like @strypey

I'm thinking about taking the vax, but I don't see any clear personal health benefits (there are other benefits related to freedom from coercion) and the solidarity arguments don't seem to add up when considering the latest data.

@jcbrand
> vaxxed people probably have fewer symptoms, so might be out more and spreading their viral load even more than symptomatic unvaxxed

This! So any reduction in total viral load in the vaccinated is like as not cancelled out by slower detection of any infections they get.

@wolf480pl

@strypey and honestly, think about the logical of the original statement. It won't keep you from infection or transmission, but may reduce symptoms.

How do they even determine that, considering all the control groups from the original clinical trials were removed? (It was considered unethical to keep giving people placebo.) If you start digging, you'll find there are no controls or double bind studies on that reduction claim. It's a marketing claim, not a study-based claim.

And looking at SARS1 vaccines, there is every indication any type of coronovirus vaccine could cause Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE), which could be the cause of many of the hospitalizations in heavily vaccinated places like Israel.

The media and social networks are also blacking out information on doctors using d-dimer tests for people who get sick after vaccination, to find that blood clotting has occurred. d-dimer can determine that a blood clot has happened recently, but not where.
@strypey yup, and being vaccinated actually makes you a liability. your body is able to host stronger breeds of the virus which means now more people are at risk than were before. it's literally herd anti-immunity.

fortunately its imminently survivable. for all the doom posting about "the hospital full of unvaccinated" the mortality rate of los angeles between vax and unvax was only different by 0.004 (normalized to percentage of fatality vs admitted)

@strypey
That does not follow.
Your condom can break too. Doesn't follow that your natural method of pulling out in time is just as good. R does not need to be 0 for the community to be protected - only less than one.

@strypey @gamayun Yup. If you're vaccinated, there is still the possibility of getting infected, but it's much less likely. Here in Ontario, we have about 80% of people aged 12+ vaccinated, but vaccinated people represent less than 15% of the new cases.

Also, even if you do get infected, you're less likely to need to use hospital resources that someone else might need. A lot of surgeries here had to be cancelled because hospitals were too overwhelmed with Covid patients.

@hubert

> 80% of people aged 12+ vaccinated, but vaccinated people represent less than 15% of the new cases.

Could this not also be explained by fewer cases in the vaccinated being detected due to suppression of symptoms?

@gamayun

@strypey
If this were the case, you should expect alpha variant to incongruously appear increasingly infectious in places with high vaccination rates and fewer restrictions. Looking at the stats for full-genome sequenced cases in Denmark, with all remaining restrictions being lifted this month, that does not appear to be the case.
@hubert

@strypey False, false, and false.

Your risk of contracting Covid whilst vaccinated is much lower than if unvaccinated.
Your viral load is also likely lower. It is certainly not worse.
Vaccinated individuals are being advised to practice NPI (nonpharmaceutical interventions) to minimise spread risk: masks, social distancing, handwashing.
If you do contract Covid without vaccination, odds of requiring intensive treatment are far higher. This occupies resources which will be unavailable to other patients, whether with Covid or unrelated conditions.

GET THE VACCINATION

@dredmorbius @strypey
He's not talking about having worse covid after vaccine, he's talking about having non-covid side effects from the vaccine. These exist. I've heard that some people got blood clots from it and died, although it's very rare. It all depends on the state of your health before getting vaccinated.

I think most people would benefit from getting vaccinated but it's their own decision.

@strypey "So getting vaccinated has no significant benefit for the community at large"

they significantly reduce your chances of becoming a carrier by making it significantly less likely you'll become infected, even with the delta variant

@Quare
Not according to the expert quoted in the link you're replying to. See the bit about how "sterilizing immunity is not induced by any of the vaccines". From what I've read the only benefit being claimed for the Pfizer vaccine (the only one in use here) is a reduction in the severity of symptoms for the vaccinated.

@strypey I apologize; I shouldn't have responded in a rush without providing some evidence. This is what I'm basing it on and why (at least in the US) vaccines are being recommended to prevent transmission: cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7

@strypey @Quare Lack of "sterilizing immunity" does not mean that it isn't effective. Sterilizing immunity just means that the immune system prevents the virus from replicating. But the vaccine still helps your body fight the virus.

from thehill.com/changing-america/w…

"For example, the inactivated poliovirus vaccine does not produce sterilizing immunity and is 90 percent or more effective. A vaccine can lessen the ability of a pathogen to produce a disease response without sterilizing it."

@strypey I wasn't going to include this because it was written prior to delta, but it's informative when combined with the previously linked study: nationalgeographic.com/science

@strypey Viral load decreases more rapidly among vaccinated, so probably makes you less likely to transmit if you are infected.

doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.28.212

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