: one simple way to reduce the flood of would be to say to vendors, you can't sell new computers (including anything that runs an OS) in our country without a 10 year full replacement guarantee, or more. That way hardware companies would have an incentive to make devices that last, and provide at least 10 years of software updates.

I've kept desktops and laptops running for about 10 years. It requires a lot of preventative maintenance and often replacing the OS with GNU/Linux, but it can be done with existing hardware. There's no technical reason hardware companies can't supply that level of durability for all computers sold.

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@strypey totally agree with you. However, from "simple users" perspective, installation of an alternative OS is hard procedure, even if it is not.

Moreover, companies don't even try making installation of alternative OS easy at all, making Boot locks and things like that. That is very sad IMO

@alexcleac @strypey I think the push in the EU towards "right to repair" should cover things like this. You should be free to install whatever OS you want on your HW.

The original vendor doesn't have to support you doing it, but it should be illegal to prevent it with boot locks, vendor firmware that aren't working with open specs, etc.

Keep computing free and open.

@kungtotte @strypey yeah, but that may work *only* for devices sold in EU. And it is small and big enough for manufacturers to do it that way...

@alexcleac right. That's why I'm saying the user ought to have a legally mandated right of replacement (with a newer device) if the vendor doesn't maintain the default OS well enough to keep the device usable.

@strypey The tech industry is built on shoddy hardware, buggy software, and user-blaming.

Perfect example: xbox 360. For years Microsoft sycophants excused their buggy software on MSFT not controlling the hardware. 2005 they released the 360 which was under their control and became the most unreliable tech ever commercially released. MSFT's corporate culture is so divorced from quality the issue wasn't resolved until a 2009 redesign.

@strypey God help us once these same incompetent programmers are having us trust our lives with their shoddy code in self-driving cars.

@SteveShelton this is exactly the issue. Computers are not just toys for the idling classes anymore, and haven't been since the 1990s. They are essential infrastructure that lives increasingly depend on. If the tech industry can't up its game through market competition (choosing to erode it instead via monopolistic tactics), then regulation is needed to make sure they do. The EU is on the right track (except with copyright enforcement where its doing another corporate oligopoly's work :/)

@strypey I had a Dell laptop where the harddrive was so hard to reach it was clearly designed to prevent the user from doing it. I found a YouTube channel of a guy with tons of repair/mod videos and he had one documenting the process on that laptop, and even he got "out of character" and started complaining about th needless complexity.

@strypey China and India who produce a majority of Ewaste and Physical Plastic Trash wouldn't put up with that and would have to be banned/blocked to sell all their merch

@electronicoffee most of the waste produced in those countries is by factories manufacturing for US and EU corporations. They control the hardware designs and the software support. The manufacturing countries have to deal with the pollution those processes create, not the countries where most of the goods are sold. This kind of cross-border outsourcing also allows corporations to exploit workers in ways that would be illegal or subject to public protest if they tried it in their own country.

@strypey "From 2021, firms will have to make appliances longer-lasting, and they will have to supply spare parts for machines for up to 10 years."

It doesn't say anything about software updates though.

@hexmasteen @strypey
While that's great for home appliances, there was a time in the 80's that we didn't want to keep older machines, as they couldn't keep up with what we wanted them to do.

What I'd like is simpler machines. - I only need a couple buttons on my washer or dryer. And I don't need a camera or IP address for a refrigerator.

> What I'd like is simpler machines

Sure, and that's one likely consequence of an obligatory 10 year guarantee. Simpler machine, less to go wrong.

I should have been more clear, in the 80's we wanted and needed faster PCs. As for appliances, other than TVs, and LED lights I can't think of anything that's really a big improvement over what we had 30 years ago.

> in the 80's we wanted and needed faster PCs.

Yup, and back then, thanks to PC open architecture standards, you could do that gradually by replacing individual components with faster/ larger/ better ones. Laptops were beginning of the end of that, and mobiles killed it completely. I've heard of batteries soldered into mainboards! It doesn't have to be that way. I want to see a return to durable, open architecture computers, in all form factors.

@strypey @randynose @hexmasteen There never really was a golden age. Even in the 1980s most home computers were not very repairable and could be upgraded only to a very limited extent. There was plenty of expensive and unrepairable junk tech. Calculators, digital watches and portable cassette players.

@bob fair points, but those pocket calculators kept working decades, and it remains true that desktops and even laptops were much more repairable/ upgradeable than pretty much any mobile device. Anyone trying to improve on that, like and the , get canned.
@randynose @hexmasteen

> thats a long time to produce parts for older appliances.

Maybe, but it's also a good incentive to:
* make parts as durable as possible
* standardize parts as much as possible, so the same parts can be used across multiple generations of devices
* make devices modular, so when the least durable parts fail they don't force replacement of still working parts too
* allow third parties to manufacture spares and perform repairs, to defray the costs of honouring the guarantee

@wyatwerp given that beyond a certain point, all future cars will be computers with wheels ... ;)
@hexmasteen @jordan31

@strypey @jordan31 @hexmasteen also, make components *repairable* in the first place. These days a mechanic hardly ever repairs anything, they replace entire components, and if it's an expensive component it might get shipped off for refurbishing otherwise it's all scrapped.

@kungtotte @strypey @hexmasteen I'm betting prices will rise in the future, but, maybe settle back down a few years later.

@strypey @kungtotte

It’s a good idea. I think it would stifle innovation, though. If every company had to commit to that level of money and time we would not have neat things like <insert pretty much everything on Kickstarter ever>.

I think Right to Repair is the better way to go at this point.

@Skypilot most crowdfunded tech depends on generic parts made by upstream manufacturers. Companies who mostly assemble off-the-shelf stuff are the customers of their upstream and could pass on the guarantee obligations on their components. But mostly hardware designers and manufacturers would have a powerful incentive to.stop doing and stuff would get more durable all round.

@strypey @Skypilot firstly I don't think it would stop innovation as much as it would stop stupid cash-grabs and reskinned existing products. Like that blender thing that got Silicon Valley all in a bother.

Forcing maintenance onto manufacturers only means they have to think through their entire production line instead of throwing stuff on the market and not caring what happens.

@strypey @Skypilot and secondly, does every kick-started product idea deserve to exist? I don't think it does. People who are truly innovative will not be stopped by these rules, and maybe what the world needs is innovation in the area of sustainability and repairability instead of how many RFID chips you can pack into a thing or how much machine learning buzzwords you can come up with.

> maybe what the world needs is innovation in the area of sustainability and repairability


@kungtotte @Skypilot @strypey

You are of course right that not every kickstarted idea should exist. But those that get funded get to try. And it’s not my place to second guess those who vote for it with their dollars. I can speak against it, and I can refuse to fund it (unless it’s tax-funded, which is why tax funding is pure evil), but that’s the end of my valid input.

@billstclair @strypey @Skypilot I'm from Sweden and I'm a registered member of the Left Party.

It's safe to say you and I have diametrically opposed views on this matter. Tax funding as a concept is a fantastic idea. This doesn't mean that all government spending is wise. Similarly to Kickstarter. Great concept, doesn't mean all the projects are great.

Opposing the concept because you don't like some implementations is foolish at best.

@kungtotte @Skypilot @strypey

I don't care what taxes are used for. Extortion is a heinous crime no matter the reason. Kickstarter donations are voluntary. Taxes not so much.

@billstclair @strypey @Skypilot like I said, diametrically opposed. I think you've got a broken world view, and I wish you the best of luck with it.

@kungtotte @Skypilot @strypey

I have an unpopular world view. Most of the world has been brainwashed into believing they need to be told what to do by a gang of professional liars (elected "officials"), and to pay for wars and other expensive boondoggles by having their money extorted. Twenty years of watching politics has taught me otherwise.

The wages of socialism are mass death. Economic laws are just as unforgiving as gravity.

But I don't expect the world to change before I die in ten or twenty years, so I mostly ignore the bastards, and spend my time doing what I love.


I expect to be around a lot longer than "ten or twenty years" - my healthy longevity practices have been doing great & no reason they & new ones I (74) & 81yo healthy husband initiate based on evidence won't do the same.
However, we too have a similar "unhealthy world view", heavily a result of acceptance by most that a coercion-based social ordering system - all Gov/States via their Enforcers - are necessary. Until far more ppl come to realize that this is not true & stop accepting/tolerating that belief & stop voluntary association w/ those willing to be Gov/State Enforcers, nothing will enable the Words of elected/authorized "officials" being simply words & ignorable.
I keep on dancing daily!

@billstclair @strypey @Skypilot @kungtotte

Property is theft and most examples of it require state enforcement of the exortions involved ("rents"), just as much as taxes do. You're not going to get rid of one without also getting rid of the other.
@kungtotte @Skypilot


Obviously, we won't be agreeing on anything here.

I view property as a basic premise of civilization, beginning with self ownership. Without property, there are no contracts, there is no money, there isn't even barter.

I can see distinguishing real estate from personal property, as the Georgists do, though I'm not a Georgist, but I can't even imagine a world without personal property.

But maybe when you said "property" you meant "real estate".

@Skypilot @kungtotte

> when you said "property" you meant "real estate".

Yes. I think that's pretty clear from the opening quote (from ). I can't think of a way that "owning" one's own body could be theft ;) BTW Proudhon also said "property is freedom", when applied to personal belongings, a right of occupation in a home, use of a workplace etc. In case you're interested, podcasted Proudhon's book 'What is Property':

@Skypilot @kungtotte

@strypey Aside from hard drive capacity and price, I have not ever bought a new computer that had a meaningful improvement in the overall experience because for every gain in computing power a software developer decreases performance with bloat and fluff. The computer I have today with Windows 10 is harder to use, less reliable, and slower than the Windows NT 4 system I had in 1997 with 48MB of RAM.

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