I've seen it suggested that the Millenials, like the Boomers, are a population bulge, meaning that there will never be a time when Gen X has anywhere near a majority in electoral politics. In this model, as the Boomers decline, Gen X is skipped and the torch of power over social and political institutions is passed directly to Millenials, who seem to be just as polarized as Boomers, if not more so.
@strypey feels pretty hopeless. Combined with the increasing difficulty of leveling up to stage4 and unlocking systematic mode, it seems like our civilization is doomed to fail.
Gen Y / Millenial. Although polarisation exists amongst this age group, I also have a lot more hope that younger generations are genuinely sincere in what they believe in and at least half of them do believe in a more positive future.
Eg a decade ago school kids in my region were refusing to let off plastic balloons near the North Sea due to the environment pollution. These kids are todays teenagers and young adults..
And what do my peers believe? From my experience, it's either of:
- this new development in my field is so cool, let's apply it to every possible usecase!!1 (hype)
- that stupid university teacher came up with a stupid assignment again that has no use in real life, and is obviously gonna require it on his stupid exam; by boss told me that he could do better the thing I spend whole week doing; this new flat we moved to sucks; everything sucks, my life sucks (chronic stress, depression?)
AFAIK there isn't as much pro-environment propaganda in UK textbooks, what was interesting round here is the kids *genuinely* wanted to clean up the coastal areas (they live there and see the impact at first hand)!
The angst and depression was also a big factor of Gen X, we often copied with it through drugs/booze/hedonism. this last bit is slightly less common amongst Gen Y (which might well be a positive thing..)
would say maybe just a decade than an entire generation, and I suspect modern Millenials *do* still want to party and get high but realise the risks often outweigh the benefits (especially getting shamed on social media and/or busted by authorities as much as health concerns..). It does mean Millenials are less distracted and more likely to take action about social issues they do not like (I do accept that this can go "both ways")
The trouble with trying to have these discussions are that we're scrying for patterns in a whole world of social noise. Also, all models are wrong, but some models are useful. The model of distinct "generations" is wrong. Keegan's model is wrong. Chapman's model is wrong, and he reminds his readers of this in his own writing about it. These models can be useful as scrying tools but not in the deterministic 'if this then that' way of arithmetic or basic physics or chemistry.
@vfrmedia every generation will have a handful of puritans and hedonists, but most will fall somewhere in between.This is relevant to the discussion of generations and meaningness when we ask *why* people get high. For a Gen Xer like me, getting wasted seemed like a sensible response to a world that felt meaningless and that I felt powerless to change. Later, when I gave up alcohol and switched to #entheogens, getting high became about changing the world by changing myself.
This points to something I think Chapman gets wrong. The countercultures he describes did exist, but a lot of what people think of when you say "counterculture" (eg psychedelia) was actually the early stirrings of the subcultural mode. Punk spawned from the British counterculture at about the same time, as metal started to gentrify (it's now thoroughly middle class) and working class metallers started to break away and make their own things. Punk got to the US much later.
@vfrmedia I've noticed that millenials, while still enjoying a good party, don't set out to destroy themselves the way we did. I reckon that's because they intuitively realize that their generation won't be numerically dominated by the one before as ours was, and they're going to have much more power to shape their world. One positive of social media is that I think it engenders that sense of agency. Mind you, suicide is still shockingly high among younger people, so ...
according to my younger friends many don't booze or take drugs simply because they don't like feeling rough/unwell on the comedowns, also nearly every social activity as well as many jobs require a car to get to and from them and DUI laws in the UK are now enforced a lot stronger than ever before (including checking for sleep deprivation/residual drugs in blood in drivers on Monday mornings)
@vfrmedia hmm. DUI checks. Something Boomers didn't have to deal with and Gen Xers didn't care about. But even the fact that they see it as a *choice* seems generational to me. Maybe Aotearoa in the 90s was a bit like Ireland, Scotland, or the North of England, but when I was a teenager it was seen as extremely weird not to want to get as blasted as possible.
most countries didn't have the surveillance infrastructure to pro-actively monitor new/young drivers in the 1990s, not just DUI but driving unlicenced/uninsured was rampant then.
I only got my licence and a car this year (after 30 years without one), after passing my test the examiner gave me this "First Car" magazine aimed at teenagers (both of us laughed).
Inside it literally every other page was for insurance with ODB2 monitoring "spy box" in the car >>
reading discussions about motoring on forums popular with young adults it seems many simply accept the presence of the box/monitoring in order to be able to drive.
I can understand the road safety rationale behind it (and indeed the UK's roads are way safer than in 1990s and some of the safest worldwide) but it (and the speed with which driving licences are now processed in UK) does also make me think of 1984 where Winston was ultimately "made to love Big Brother"
Three mates + me on holiday in Donegal, Ireland. We get involved in a pub quiz, in a pub, in the middle of nowhere. About 5 miles to next village & our campsite.
A great time was had by all, and *lots* of beer was drunk. Afterwards, we were standing outside discussing walking to the campsite. One local intervenes and says "just drive". "What about the Gardaí?" says me. "Don't worry, they won't bother you." says the local.
"How do you know that?" Says me, in response. The local replies "I am the Garda, for here." Me now speechless.
So, we decided to drive. We offered a lift to some of our quiz competitors. In the end we had 14 people in my car. I had the policeman on my lap, another two in the passenger seat, four in the back seat, with several lying flat on top ,and the rest hanging out the hatchback. I drove at 10mph with the sunroof open for front passenger headroom.
to be fair you are not going to be much of a hazard driving at 16 km/h with a cop on your lap 😆
the rave scene was maybe more of a genuine risk as it coincided with the era that young people were just about able to afford relatively faster and more powerful cars, yet the cops had no ANPR equipment and analogue radios (so anyone with a radio scanner could work out where all the trafpol units were..)
TBH, at the time I was more worried about tearing off my exhaust, as the road surface was a bit uneven.
My point was to illustrate the differing attitudes to drinking and driving, over time and in different places. Attitudes to drink-driving have rightly changed. Too many people have friends & family injured & killed in alcohol fuelled road accidents.
Though as you say 16km/h isn't fast. I also had lots of witnesses. 😃, though possibly not reliable.
Any model that can express arithmetic can't be complete and consistent at the same time.
That'd mean even arithmetic is wrong, as in, it doesn't apply to all situations.
Most of theories in physics are also just tools. g=10m/s^2 ? Works well for light objects near Earth surface. In other cases, you need a better tool, like F=GMm/r^2, or even general relativity... or even quantum gravity which we don't have yet.
Now that I think of it, physicists probably gave it easier to get into stage 5 and learn to use fluid mode.
btw. at one point I thought it'd be fun to try to implement arithmetic on top of good/bad valuations in some existing ideology, but then I realized that "everything bad is because of $theEnemy" is not too much an ideology, and people who use it may not comprehend systematic mode, so they probably wouldn't give a shit about theoretical contradictions.
Interesting. I wonder who their support base is though? Putting side their age, is there anything about their approach to politics that seems generational? I also wonder how many Gen X world leaders there have been? In my country (#NZ) we've skipped straight from Boomers to a Millenial. I
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