If anyone knows #Go and is looking for a project to help out with, Go-based #Signal protocol implementation library and a native #SailfishOS Signal client using it are in dire need of love:

Yes, I also prefer truly decentralized protocols, but Signal is where it's at currently with a lot of people, and it's way better than other popular options... So, we need independent clients.

#InfoSec #FreeSoftware


@rysiek hasn't demanded people not connect third-party clients to their servers? In fact, any binaries not distributed by them (they refuse to let distribute their app). These are only two of many reasons not to support Signal with your unpaid time:

I'd recommend working on a native client for instead. They are a) already close to feature parity with Signal b) actively working towards server>server federation:

@strypey yeah, I am more interested in Briar (time to go full p2p decentralized).

I need Signal for work. It took 3 years to move 200+ journalists to Signal, I don't have 3 more years to now move them to Wire, unless Signal really fscks up big time.

> I am more interested in Briar

Speaking of full , have you looked at (formerly )? I've successfully made one-to-one voice calls on it, and I believe they're currently working on group calls. Not great for delayed delivery of text messages yet though.

@strypey ah no, didn't know about Jami. Thanks! Will check it out.

> I need Signal for work.

Fair enough, but that's no reason to encourage people to do unpaid work for them. Why support anyway? Hardly anyone uses it and refuse to release all the source code for their UI under free licenses.

> unless Signal really fscks up big time.

Did you read OP of the first link I posted?


> that's no reason to encourage people to do unpaid work for them.

Moxie fights the idea of independent clients, so this is far from working *for them*. In fact, it seems to be the opposite.

> Why support Sailfish?

Because it's the only usable mobile OS that is so open and comes with actual support.

> Did you read OP of the first link I posted?

Yes, and I agree with most of it. But I need to communicate with people where my choices are Signal or Viber/Telegram/Whatsapp.

@strypey oh, and I love that this privacytoolsIO thing is hosted on GitHub.

We all make compromises.

@ilpianista @BurungHantu @strypey I know, I just could not stop myself from tooting (pun totally intended!) my own horn.

there is an active discussion going on in issues about what to use instead of GH. These decisions will become a lot easier when federated forums and code forges () are ready for production use.

> Because it's the only usable mobile OS that is so open and comes with actual support

1) ? ? ?
2) isn't any more open than , maybe less. It has chunks of non-free code in the UI layer that have so far refused to release.

@rysiek I agree with @strypey here. I was on the #SailfishOS boat, I even built 6 apps, but my current #LineageOS phone is "FOSSer" than #Jolla's one. I'm actually looking at #PlasmaMobile on #postmarketOS as alternative

@strypey @rysiek and the Purism phone has poprietary wifi-drivers
@strypey @rysiek

> Hardly anyone uses it and #Jolla refuse to release all the source code for their UI under free licenses.

I wanted to be cautiously optimistic after last month's announcement, but they're not even answering comments on the post, so I can't.


@rysiek @strypey
I also moved about 75 people to Signal. Some of them even use it to talk among themselves (not with me). There's no way I'm putting all that in danger by suggesting another move.

@Maltimore I understand. has stopped supporting 32-bit GNU/Linux (because of its desktop app's dependency on ) but I don't really want to have to move all the folks I got to start using it. But this, right here, is precisely why it's essential to be able to recommend decentralized apps that don't lock you and your contacts into a single vendor ( not ). have said will never be that, so we need to be scanning the horizon for future options.

@rysiek @strypey What's the motivation for Whisper doing this? Is it just security through control?

Signal does show that people will adopt the right apps. I've been pleasantly surprised how many friends and family like it.

@sullybiker @strypey signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-

tl;dr software freedom only makes sense as long as moxie remains in control

(yes, I am being bitter about this)

@rysiek @strypey Thanks for the link. The tone reminds me a lot of Lennart, actually, and I say that in as neutral a way as possible.

@rysiek @sullybiker @strypey
now that you posted this link, I feel compelled to post this response:
by Daniel Gultsch's of Conversations.im

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker @strypey

For example, subscriptions to ticket trackers could be sold

You wanna open a ticket ?

You need to buy a 10$ annual subscription

Reading and triaging bugs is work and it should be payed

If that makes you outraged you are probably forgetting the "free" is intended as in freedom, not as in beer

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker @strypey

When enough value will be accrued in a project, corporations will come

Corporations use to invest in order to open or develop markets

The free software community should do the same

Probably not with comparable amounts of money

But still...

@AbbieNormal @rysiek @sullybiker @strypey
Well, in many cases the developer would be happy if people reported the bug. You want to know when you've made a mistake, right?

Feature requests OTOH....

@Wolf480pl feature requests are also useful if you're a developer who cares about , as opposed to one who's scratching their own itch and sharing the results. What would be great is a tracker, where devs could give a time estimate for the feature, and an hourly rate, and users who want the feature could contribute until the required amount is raised. All within the same UI not on a separate site like
@AbbieNormal @rysiek @sullybiker

@kropot @strypey @Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker

Yes I already read about Gitea in the past

I just didn't know that issues allowed the things that were discussed in this thread

I agree that estimates are weak, but I can think of two possibilities that might also work: one is the devs set a price, and the other that the users set a bounty. Each has pluses and minuses. The big plus is "all within the same environment, not a separate site".

@strypey @AbbieNormal @rysiek @sullybiker

@bhaugen @Wolf480pl @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker

Those are all interesting ideas but they are a bit more complicated than what I proposed

I proposed to sell the access to the issue tracker. That's all

@bhaugen @Wolf480pl @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker

Software production is craftsmanship

What's needed to achieve targets is not measurable.

And it's not a given that users know what they want, or that they share the vision with the devs

I wouldn't overcomplicate because then implementation gets more difficult and you run into overlaps with uman issues (differences in vision, motivation)

@bhaugen @Wolf480pl @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker

You risk this thing to fail and you couldn't even point precisely to a reason why

I'd keep it simple

The community needs to produce some more revenue right now without the need to implement new processes whose implementation would eat up the new revenue produced

I'd try to keep this more down to hearth

@AbbieNormal @bhaugen @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker
I think it's already very hard to get people to report bugs, as opposed to just giving up and coming to a conclusion that the piece of software is shit and will never work.

It's even harder to get quality bug reports.

Putting up a paywall in front of that will guarantee that more people will give up before filing a bug report.

@Wolf480pl @bhaugen @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker

But it will also guarantee that the reactions will be of a higher quality

Repeating over and over that the problem of floss is money without acting won't help

Gamifying the software production process is a silly idea

The problem doesn't need more tech

It needs people to step out of their comfort zones

@AbbieNormal @bhaugen @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker
Well I kinda disagree with the argument that the problem of FLOSS is money, but not sure if you want to debate it now.

@AbbieNormal @bhaugen @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker
Hmm... yeah I forgot I posted that.

Now that I think of it, it really depends on what kinda project you're developing and your target audience.

A lot of projects would benefit more from making it easy for users to become contributors and help fix the issues they encounter.

But then for a project that targets mostly non-technical people, money probably would be more effective.

@AbbieNormal @bhaugen @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker
Btw. I know one project which has a bug tracker behind a paywall.

Red Hat.

@Wolf480pl @bhaugen @strypey @rysiek @sullybiker

I didn't know

RedHat has been a huge contributor and quite tech inclined, indeed

@AbbieNormal I don't see how providing a way to expose what a feature request or bug fix might cost, and allowing users who care about it to contribute money towards covering that cost (assuming they don't have the skills to do it themselves and submit a patch), has anything to do with ...
> Gamifying the software production process

@Wolf480pl @bhaugen @rysiek @sullybiker

@strypey @Wolf480pl @bhaugen @rysiek @sullybiker

Maybe you're right

That could help

Bring it on !

I for one would like to raise money to provide Guile with a debugger

The one it has is broken

> The community needs to produce some more revenue right now

I agree, but nobody is going to pay to file bugs or help triage them. Also, the community would need even more revenue if it had to pay beta testers, which it would if paywalls on issue trackers blocked most users from doing it as volunteers.
@bhaugen @Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker

@strypey @bhaugen @Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker

If you're not ready to spend 10$ in a year, you won't be a great contributor anyway

Bug reports are contributions. You could charge people to submit patches too, but that also wouldn't make much sense. It would be better to charge users when they download pre-compiled binaries, and maybe give them a free pass if they submit detailed, helpful bug reports.
@bhaugen @Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker

> And it's not a given that users know what they want

Users are the *only* people who know what they want from software. That's why practices that involve end users in the design of user-facing software produced better software, faster, and cheaper, than waterfall methods. They won't always share their needs with the developer, true, but that's all the more reason not to put a paywall between them and the place they can do so.
@bhaugen @Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker

@strypey @bhaugen @Wolf480pl @rysiek @sullybiker


Visionary devs could come up with visions that users only understand after having experienced that

Corporate sw and free sw don't need to be the same thing

@Wolf480pl that's the developer's problem. If they want to keep their hourly rate up they'll learn to under-promise and over-deliver, rather than vice-versa. The point is that if they agree to a price and the money is raised, they have to prioritize the work over scratching their own itches, but the upside is they will get paid for it.
@AbbieNormal @rysiek @sullybiker

This is a great idea, and I am saving it to see if we can do it in the economic network version of ActivityPub.

@Wolf480pl @AbbieNormal @rysiek @sullybiker

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Mastodon - NZOSS

The social network of the future: No ads, no corporate surveillance, ethical design, and decentralization! Own your data with Mastodon!