.io have a ( and a instance:

Great to see the team creating replacements for their use of like Reddit and the birdsite.

A shame that the Discourse forum seems to require a GH account :/ (unless that's just a bug). In fact it's a shame that they're still using GH at all, when self-hosting using a code forge platform like is an option. Hopefully that's in the pipeline?

@strypey Looks like you can create a new account on their forums if you don't want to log in via GitHub.

@algernon hmm. Neither is working for me. I suspect I'm starting to hit more and more weird issues due to being on a 32-bit OS based off Ubuntu 16.04.

@strypey @algernon you can definitely create a local account on the forum. If you DM me your email I can try sending you an invite directly if that’d help. The forum’s still very new, so still troubleshooting a bit 😄

@strypey New to #PrivacyTools and I am curious what you mean by Reddit being a data farm. What data are they collecting on users?

@cowan I haven't studied this in detail, but here are some facts:
1) Reddit has ads. Ads = tracking and data collection.
2) Reddit used to release their server code under a license. Not anymore. I suspect because of the move to ads

If you really want to know, read the fine print of the Reddit ToS, Privacy Policy etc. I tend to assume that any internet platform that's heavily VC-funded or owned by corporate shareholders is a unless there's a good reason to think otherwise.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo the PTIO subReddit existed before the Discourse forum was set up. I can't see why it's a reason to avoid PTIO. Which do you think are the
> toxic endorsements

I agree there are some issues with PTIO's current approach to endorsements, but let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. Although it can take persistence to overcome some core members' confirmation bias at times, PTIO's endorsements do change in response to new information (eg removing Wire endorsement after they set up a US branch company to accept VC). Instead of condemning it, how about continuing to work at improving it?

> steer people away from it.

Towards what? Who else is doing the job PTIO is trying to do?


@switchingsoftware is a great project and I'm glad it got rebooted. But their focus is whether something is a replacement for the feature set of the , not how well it protects user privacy.
@notclacke @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @clacke @cowan

Hi there 👋

let me start by saying that @privacytools is one of my sources and we recommend them:

Second, I think we shouldn't scare each other *away from* things. Like @strypey implied: Guiding us *towards* sites/software and improving these seems better 🙂

Third, thanks for the mention @notclacke . Like PTIO, we are far from perfect (probably further). Like "we" being often me, @tobias, doing this as one of multiple hobbies 😅

Let's do our best to improve things :)

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo is a bad procurement choice, but it's just commodity hosting, not a software dependency. If you dig a bit you'll find that most of the fediverse is ultimately hosted on AWS, as are , , and if I remember rightly, .org. I'm pretty sure this isn't the worst thing about any given service, Reddit included.


@strypey @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @cowan AWS is not just hosting, it's a crazy amount of software around it that makes it worth the money (if you want/need all that they offer), so it is kinda a software dependency too. Besides: is not hosted on AWS, is

@jcgruenhage If people engineer their service in ways that make it hard to move off AWS, that's a different issue. But AWS can be used just like any other remote hosting vendor, in such a way that servers can be easily moved elsewhere. The folks have been using it that way for some of their services:

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @cowan

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I share all these concerns about Amazon (see my comments on the linked page). My point is that being hosted on AWS is a fairly easy problem to solve. Step 1: move your servers to a more ethical hosting provider, like the service mentioned at that linked page. Done.

@cowan @jcgruenhage

> an ethical user does not use Reddit.

That's like saying an ethical user doesn't use computers, because all hardware manufacturers buy from companies who trade in conflict minerals. It's absurd to hold users responsible for procurement choices they don't control. These issues:

... are more discoverable and more relevant to users than where a service hosts their servers at any given time.
@jcgruenhage @cowan

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @jcgruenhage @cowan
Do you know where is hosted? Do you know which datacentres the server(s) are housed in? Do you know who supplies their bandwidth, or their electricity? Who handles their security, or their insurance? Do you know where the domain is registered? Do you know which parent companies owns all those companies, and who owns those parent companies? Are you responsible for all their ethical violations because you use that instance?

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo thanks for the nuanced reply. As you acknowledge, it's more complex than 'an ethical user does not use X'. We all choose our compromises, in situations of limited information, limited freedom of action, and limited power to influence larger institutional arrangements. One useful question to ask is; which compromises are ruinous?

@cowan @jcgruenhage

is one of a number of federated Reddit-a-like projects. See the 'Link-sharing, Forum, and Group Apps' category here:

We checked them again recently, for possible inclusion on the front page of, but none are production-ready yet.

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