@pootz I mostly agree, but using ad blockers again tries to fix things conveniently on the consumer side. We're not even talking profit for web providers here but merely covering costs. That seems to make the existing problem only worse... 😐

@sophia

@z428 two things on this,

> using ad blockers again tries to fix things conveniently on the consumer side

1) licenses and try to fix things conveniently on the consumer side as well. Waiting for some kind of regulation like or suites to stop companies from abusing as would be about as effective as waiting for states to enforce protection of through regulation and court action. Still waiting ...

@pootz@mastodon.technology @sophia

@z428
2) your comment severely understates the benefits of . My laptop used to crash *constantly* until I installed . Had I not been using an adblocker, the web would have been completely unusable for me.
@pootz@mastodon.technology @sophia

@z428
3) advertising is and has always been a dodgy way to fund anything. Chomsky and Herman's book (and the documentary of the same name) explained that in detail back in 1988, before the web was invented. I agree with that anything we can do to disrupt the ad business is a legitimate and necessary form of activism.
@pootz@mastodon.technology @sophia

@strypey ... am more and more unhappy with these things turning into a culture of free(charge) mindless consumption by an increasingly large crowd on the internet which doesn't hesitate throwing in €1k for the latest iPhone but starts feeling cheated on and abused as soon as an independent web site asks for €2/month to keep their servers running. We are in a dire need to get that re-balanced somehow.
@pootz @sophia

@z428 I agree that we need more experiments in funding online services. Especially when FB is estimated to cost about US$1/per/year. But:
1) making the world's knowledge available gratis, to anyone who wants to learn from it, is one of the most incredible achievements of our civilization. Not a pathology to be cured.
2) Wikipedia continues to prove that its possible to provide free access to a *very* heavily used website without putting up a paywall or using ads ...
@pootz@mastodon.technology

@z428
3) web hosting doesn't cost as much as people seem to think. In the early 2000s sites paid about $100 a year for hosting, and In 2013, you could get hosting for a year for less than US$100:
static.pinboard.in/prosperity_

That's twenty espresso coffees or beers at US$5 each. Businesses will those kinds of overheads have no excuse for their visitors. It happens to increase returns for and corporate shareholders.
@pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey Hmmm. Not sure. I agree with your example but they seem way too black/white for my tastes. Not everyone who tries to utilize some "pay"-per-use model for getting (some) funding for an online service from its users is necessarily a vulture capitalist. Likewise, I refuse to see people browsing YouTube or similar sites for early "rips" of the latest blockbuster movie or the latest chartbreaker album to ...
@pootz

@z428 I think we're talking past each other. I'm objecting to web ads and tracking. I have no problem with charging users for premium services, like .in, the new , , and so on. Also Vulture Capitalists are the people who use capital as a tool to extract value from online service companies, as described by in his book, not the people running the services.
@pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey ... pages that matter to them in order to figure out what funding alternatives would be there and if they are willing to experiment. Not even talking (again) about conscious effort on choosing other sites and providers that align with your ethics and ideas, rather than keeping on using what you use now without second thought and use an ad blocker on that. 😉

@pootz

@z428 you seem to be totally ignoring the way people actually use the web. There's no way I can help to fund every website I might one day want to visit. When I click on a result in a search engine, I have no idea what the business model of that site is. I do know that if I don't have my AdBlocker and turned on a) my browser might crash, and b) my privacy might be invaded. Using an AdBlocker is just basic security, like using an Antivirus on Windows.
@pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey @pootz @z428 Plus with there are other ways websites can be oppressive beyond just ads. If I knew the things i do now, I'm not sure I'd go as on and on about advertisements as I once had.

Video Game chat servers is a good example: you have no real way of knowing whether the user of any given channel is going to be emotionally manipulative, like some of the place I've experienced on Discord.

And the news over simplifies it by making it look like some neo-nazi thing. When there is so much more to places like Discord, that's toxic to anybody across the political spectrum.

But for some, discord is viable, because there is no alternative besides Teamspeak or Skype.

There is Matrix now, but that hasn't always been the case. And even Matrix isn't a perfect platform.

@LWFlouisa it depends if you're trying to replace as a chat *technology*, in which case I highly recommend , or the hosted *social* aspect of Discord. The social aspect is much more complicated to replace, due to things like .
@z428 @pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey @pootz @z428 I might look into mumble then. There are a couple of communities I still like, like Webcomic Underdogs (mostly), but generally I'd like a different software and social package. Maybe not for writing since we already have one at Loomio.

Biggest thing is LitRPG/GameLit is turning out to be the biggest dudebro/gamegate community I've been involved in. I seriously hope it's just an oddity about this one discord channel, and not LitRPG in general. Ordinarily most writing communities I've been on have been civil.

@LWFlouisa well, Discord is well known to be a social network for gamers, that just happens to take the form of a chat server. Not surprising you'd find a higher proportion of types there. I haven't spent much time on public channels, but I've used it as a replacement for for voice conferences for activist tech projects. It's pretty good quality for that, and to boot.
github.com/mumble-voip/mumble
@z428 @pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey @pootz @z428 The biggest thing, is I think centralized platforms act like I somehow owe them the right to host my content, so they can basically treat you however they want to as basically "free labor." But then whenever I withdraw my work, suddenly they act hissy.

That's not to say I wouldn't give out copies for free, but I wont be hosting my fiction for free (on centralized platforms) again, without some compensation.
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@LWFlouisa absolutely. Corporate platforms have exploited a culture of collaborative creation and free sharing that emerged around early platforms, passing themselves off as being the same as community-orientated hosts like , , and . It's a classic bait-and-switch.
@z428 @pootz@mastodon.technology

@LWFlouisa nope. It started with in the 90s, and the winners of each round of the Survivor Startup have become the next generation of . Eg. take . Andreeson co-founded and Horowitz worked there too, before acquired it. Then they co-founded , made it to , then sold its customers to , and pivoted to , which was acquired by in 2007 for US$1.6 billion.
@z428 @pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey @pootz @z428 So with Wattpad and RoyalRoad, it's basically business as per usual then.

Then worst thing about RoyalRoad is, you can get the free deal but the comments you get per chapter aren't very detailed, and there is a percentage chance even if you purchased the premium deal, the comments may still be just as lacking in any real detail.

So you end up basically just throwing money down the drain.

@LWFlouisa you've mentioned these platforms a few times. I can't get to them at the moment because the VPN is not working on my laptop. Are the comments you mention provided by paid reviewers that work for the site, or by other users? I mean, what are you really paying for? Professional commentary, or just hosting?
@z428 @pootz@mastodon.technology

@strypey @pootz @z428 Looked to make sure I'm not giving you the wrong information:

Ad free free browsing experience, and a sticker for supporting royal road for the cheapest, and for $4.90 a month detailed analytics, customized fiction header, epub export, automatic draft saving. So you'd get the better deal for just paying $4.99 a month.

But I've tried epub export in places like Penana, and vary rarely do they turn out professionally formatted.

@LWFlouisa so the comments are just from other users? Not part of the service you pay for? In which case you take your chances, just like to do on a subreddit, or the fediverse, or anywhere else you invite user comments. So I guess the trick is to keep shopping around for the platforms that happen to have attracted the most thoughtful and generous users at any given time ;)

@strypey I went ahead and decided to go straight to Amazon (for now, looking for a better alternative). But I'm semi-considering opening up the next extension to feedback on Loomio. Would that be OK? Also this is my current W.I.P. cover art: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cKzS0zXrL.jpg
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