@KevinMarks @strypey @cwebber

What would a partnership of indieweb and activitypub look like? Can they play nicely together? Or would they fight?

@bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber the main difference is that (as I understand it) is designed around the idea of everyone having a self-hosted homepage, which implements a bunch of simple-as-possible protocols, allowing those homepages to form a social network. Obviously quite different from the assumptions behind AP (a federation of servers, each with one or more users, each with a web or native client) or (a network of native clients that may have intermittent net access)

@strypey @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber Not an expert but I don't think it's *necessarily* (although very common) about being self-hosted, it's about owning your identity and your data. e.g. micro.blog provides hosted services that adhere to indieweb protocols (and principles).

In some ways its closer to Hubzilla than Mastodon, IMO.

The reason I mention that (and hope I'm correct in saying so) is that I think it's vital that indieweb does not expect everyone will self-host.

@neil @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber I could be wrong, but the indie.web always struck me as a very 'by developers, for developers' approach. Everything I've read about it, including all the stuff on their site, seems to be aimed at people who understand protocols and how to implement them.

@strypey @neil @bhaugen @KevinMarks I'm not really interested in "by developers, for developers", because my target is not "liberate developers", it is "liberate everyone"

@cwebber @strypey @neil @bhaugen I don't think we disagree about goals, but about methods to some extent. Indieweb was founded after frustration with large complex federation efforts aimed at big companies, and refocusing on web-centric models that are small and simple to implement.
OStatus has a lot of these complexities included (webfinger and salmon being the most egregious). w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AccountDi has some of this.

@KevinMarks @cwebber @strypey @neil

Kevin, can you federate with all of the people in this message from an indie.web place-to-stand?

If not, what would it take to be able to do that?

Or conversely, what would it take for eg a one-person ActivityPub (which I got) to be able to federate with you communing from an indie.web place?

(Was that all clear?)

@bhaugen @cwebber @strypey @neil known.kevinmarks.com/2018/i-ca

It should be possible for you to subscribe to an indieweb site via atom and webpub, but mastodon wants a lot of webfinger wrangling to do that.

@KevinMarks @bhaugen @cwebber @neil isn't part of the AP spec (AFAIK). It's just something Mastodon (and Pleroma) bolt on, so people can continue to use the familiar user@domain.foo ID format, and (I assume) to maintain backwards compatibility with .

@strypey @KevinMarks @bhaugen @cwebber @neil

I wonder if a federated system would ever beat out a decentralized vision. Mastodon instances come and go and data could be, will be, lost forever, somebody else besides you gets to decide the rules of the road.

Open systems can have closed leadership that does not gel well with the idea of putting users in control of their data,


@jgmac1106 this blog piece and its comment thread has some useful commentary on the various ideas about what 'decentralized' can mean:

@strypey Dietrich is awesome. I have been playing with Dat and beaker browser.

Though my definition of decentralized would include a bunch folks interacting from their own websites and readers without ever touching another service

@jgmac1106 as I said in my comment on that article, the word "decentralized" has two standard definitions, one from politics, from from networking, and neither of them are the one you are proposing. It's fine to have your own non-standard definition, but if you don't give your personal definition the fist time you use the word in a conversation, don't be surprised if it confuses people ;)

@strypey and as I said I am hear to learn all the definitions so thanks for the patience and explanations

@jgmac1106 cool. BTW the projects introduced in those posts are not Mozilla projects. Also, I imagine most of the hackers who work for them or volunteer on their projects are every bit as frustrated with their financially-motivated decision-making as we are.

@strypey I say it with love. I am a long time Mozilla contributor... But turning my attention to an open source project with no bosses or boards has been heavenly

@strypey in terms 9f Mozilla not much currently. They shut down. The learning space where I was most active. Did do work 9n writing curriculum for open leadership training. Been kicking it with #IndieWeb crew lately. Actually at IndieWebCamp NYC this weekend.

@jgmac1106 most people think of the net as decentralized, which it is. But although TCP/IP was designed to allow a mesh network, most of us still connect via an ISP. So the ISPs form a mesh, but when you look at the net as a whole, including the ISPs' customers, it's a federated network. But it would only be centralized if all ISPs has to connect to a single, central choke point, instead of forming a mesh with each other.

@strypey that being said I don't trust any product from Mozilla beyond Firefox. They all eventually get shut down by some higher up, when soft money gets cut off, or when the one person stewarding the project moves on

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